From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 12:40:44 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O5efXr001460 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:40:43 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O5eZY14055 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:40:35 +0700 Message-ID: <3F712DC5.5060607@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:38:13 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [relaxng-user] Testing relaxng-user X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:40:47 -0000 This is a test. James From ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk Wed Sep 24 13:48:32 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O6mVjv010515 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:48:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O6mfmr006265 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O6mfbj006262; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) Message-ID: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [relaxng-user] A question on content models X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:48:33 -0000 X-Original-Date: 23 Sep 2003 23:48:41 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:48:33 -0000 ::Migrated from xml-dev:: I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual elements. The master file s the individual ones. The master file has declarations like Individual files usually say something like I use this as a kind of type system. Individual content models may contain Question 1: is this a good way of doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element the common declarations (a group of attributes in this case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, XSD does (thought inheritance). Ari. From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 14:03:43 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O73eOx012919 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:03:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O73XY14549 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:03:33 +0700 Message-ID: <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:01:10 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:03:43 -0000 K. Ari Krupnikov wrote: > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > elements. The master file s the individual ones. > > The master file has declarations like > > > > > > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > > > I use this as a kind of type system. Individual content models may > contain > > > > > > > Question 1: is this a good way of > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? It seems good to me. The only disadvantage is that it may make your schemas harder to understand. You have to weigh that against the better modularity it gives you. > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > XSD does (thought inheritance). Even with inheritance in XSD, you have do do something on every element (namely declare it to have an appropriate type). You can do this in RELAX NG by - having a definition for each type - having each type reference the definition of its base type - having the pattern for each element of that type reference the definition for its type (the ref to this definition is serving the same role as the type attribute in XSD) James From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 14:20:39 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7Kaad015132 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:37 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O7KTY14622 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:20:29 +0700 Message-ID: <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:18:06 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:20:39 -0000 > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > elements. The master file s the individual ones. It's also worth mentioning that you can use a similar technique with attributes. > The master file has declarations like > > > > For sets of attributes, use instead of > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". James From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 14:33:19 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7XI3K016881 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:33:18 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O7XSmr006430 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O7XRkM006427; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F714136.2000101@jclark.com> Message-ID: <86fzimsks8.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:19 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 00:33:27 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:19 -0000 James Clark writes: > > Question 1: is this a good way of > > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? > > It seems good to me. The only disadvantage is that it may make your > schemas harder to understand. You have to weigh that against the > better modularity it gives you. What other (easier to understand, less modular) alternative are you referring to? As far as ease of understanding goes, I tangle the individual RNGs from ``semi-literate'' markup, where the individual elements are documented. It seemed easier to create one RNG per literate document than put them all in one RNG. > > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > > XSD does (thought inheritance). > > Even with inheritance in XSD, you have do do something on every > element (namely declare it to have an appropriate type). You can do > this in RELAX NG by > > - having a definition for each type > > - having each type reference the definition of its base type > > - having the pattern for each element of that type reference the > definition for its type (the ref to this definition is serving the > same role as the type attribute in XSD) How would you then say "any element of this type allowed here"? Ari. From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 14:46:53 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O7kreV018629 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:46:53 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O7l2mr006466 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O7l25a006463; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> Message-ID: <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:46:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 00:47:02 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:46:54 -0000 James, Thanks for setting up this list, and for answering so promptly. James Clark writes: > > The master file has declarations like > > > > > > > > For sets of attributes, use instead of > > > > This may become a FAQ. What's the difference between empty and notAllowed in this context? Are they ever interchangeable? Would it mean the same if I said this? > > Individual files usually say something like > > > > > > > > > > > > Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". For attributes or in general? Again, this may be a FAQ, what's the difference between "choice" and "interleave" in this context? Is the same as Ari. From EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp Wed Sep 24 15:13:20 2003 Received: from goro.asahi-net.or.jp (goro.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.40]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8DIuh022009 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:13:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from j.asahi-net.or.jp (karl.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.33.31]) by goro.asahi-net.or.jp (8.11.7/3.7W) with SMTP id h8O8DCM88716 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:13:12 +0900 (JST) Received: by j.asahi-net.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 24 Sep 2003 17:13:12 +0900 From: EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Lines: 38 Message-Id: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] common-atts X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 17:13:11 +0900 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0000 > This may become a FAQ. What's the difference between empty and > notAllowed in this context? Are they ever interchangeable? Would it > mean the same if I said this? > > > No, and are not interchangeable. If you write , you allow . If your write , you allow nothing. In the case of your example, use of for class.filter means that allows . Some analogy might help to understand and . The former is similar to 0 and the latter is similar to 1. is simliar to "+". E.g., 0 + x = x p1 = p1 is similar to "*". E.g.., 0 * x = 0 p1 = 1 * x = x p1 = p1 Just like 1+x cannot be simplified, p1 cannot be simplified. Hope this helps. Cheers, Makoto From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 15:29:59 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8Twbk023842 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:29:59 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O8U8mr006690 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O8U8ED006687; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: [relax-ng-comment] common-atts References: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F715217.112946.001@karl.j.asahi-net.or.jp> Message-ID: <867k3ysi5r.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 01:30:08 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0000 EB2M-MRT@asahi-net.or.jp (Murata Makoto) writes: > If you write , you allow > . If your write , > you allow nothing. Thank you. I understand it now. What I wanted was an abstract declaration for a type that elements may declare themselves to belong to, so works. Is this the intended use of notAllowed? Ari. From jjc@jclark.com Wed Sep 24 15:45:04 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O8j1pE025658 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:45:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8O8isY15037 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:44:54 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:42:31 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> In-Reply-To: <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:45:04 -0000 Murata-san has mostly covered this already but since I had my reply mostly written already I'll send it as well. > What's the difference between empty and > notAllowed in this context? The following analogy may help (or it may just confuse things!): if you think of choice as addition and interleave as multiplication, then notAllowed is like 0 and empty is like 1. Whether to use notAllowed or empty in this context depends on whether you are going to use combine="choice" or combine="interleave". If combine="choice" then use notAllowed; if combine="interleave" then use empty. That's because X | notAllowed is equivalent to X for any pattern X; similarly, X & empty is equivalent to X for any pattern X. >>>Individual files usually say something like >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>Then use combine="interleave" instead of combine="choice". > > > For attributes or in general? Again, this may be a FAQ, what's the > difference between "choice" and "interleave" in this context? Is > > > > > > the same as > > > > > > No. The combine attribute just says what happens when you have two definitions with the same name. My fingers are getting tired, so I'm going to use the compact syntax here: a &= X a &= Y is the same as a = X & Y Also a = attribute foo { ... } & attribute bar { ... } is equivalent to a = attribute foo { ... }, attribute bar { ... } (because attribute order is not significant). So if you are defining sets of attributes you want to use empty and &=. You would use notAllowed and |= for attributes only if you had a case where you wanted the schema allowed one of a class of attributes (which is rare). James From ari@lib.aero Wed Sep 24 16:25:59 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O9Pw2M031402 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:25:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O9Q8mr006976 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@lib.aero) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8O9Q7jC006973; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@lib.aero using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] A question on content models References: <86k77ysmuu.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F71452E.70800@jclark.com> <86brtask5l.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> From: ari@lib.aero (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <3F7158F7.8060208@jclark.com> Message-ID: <863cemsfkg.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:59 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 02:26:07 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:59 -0000 James Clark writes: > Murata-san has mostly covered this already but since I had my reply > mostly written already I'll send it as well. > > > What's the difference between empty and > > notAllowed in this context? > > The following analogy may help (or it may just confuse things!): if > you think of choice as addition and interleave as multiplication, then > notAllowed is like 0 and empty is like 1. > > Whether to use notAllowed or empty in this context depends on whether > you are going to use combine="choice" or combine="interleave". If > combine="choice" then use notAllowed; if combine="interleave" then use > empty. That's because X | notAllowed is equivalent to X for any > pattern X; similarly, X & empty is equivalent to X for any pattern X. OK, it all makes sense now. Conjunction for universal qualifiers, disjunction for existential? Ari. From chengchangwu@yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 23:42:27 2003 Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8OGgRT1097366 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:42:27 +0700 (ICT) Received: from h42-210-66-25.seed.net.tw (HELO magic) (chengchangwu@210.66.25.42 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2003 16:42:21 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> From: "Cheng-Chang Wu" To: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:39:33 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:42:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc = complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? Cheng-Chang Wu ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm using xsltproc to split = spectest.xml in the=20 test suite. Xsltproc complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find = this=20 file?
 
Cheng-Chang = Wu
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C382FD.7D357CE0-- From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Sep 25 00:05:32 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OH5VvD001428 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:05:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1657225072E; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:01:44 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:02:38 +0100 To: "Cheng-Chang Wu" , From: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl In-Reply-To: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:05:33 -0000 At 00:39 25/09/2003 +0800, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: >I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc >complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? Suggest trying on the xsltproc mailing list? Or one of Daniel's source files? HTH DaveP From dpawson@nildram.co.uk Thu Sep 25 00:05:34 2003 Received: from smithers.nildram.co.uk (smithers.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OH5Xhf001421 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:05:33 +0700 (ICT) Received: from main.nildram.co.uk (dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.251.105]) by smithers.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1644F25F49B for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:59:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924175952.00b17598@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> X-Sender: dpawson@pop3.Nildram.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:00:25 +0100 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org From: Dave Pawson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [relaxng-user] .... And welcome X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:05:34 -0000 Test message. regards DaveP From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Thu Sep 25 01:49:42 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OIngin018616 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:49:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OInp9c010139 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:49:51 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OInKYm026472 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:49:36 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:45:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:45:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:49:42 -0000 I just got a Sharp's Linux-based PDA, the Zaurus SL5500, and thought it would be fun to get jing running on it. I got a NoClassDefFoundError because it couldn't find org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler. I believe that when I run this on a Windows machine, jing is finding these classes right in the 1.4 jvm, but the Zaurus jvm (the Jeode "evm") doesn't have that. I addedxml-apis.jar from xerces, which has the org.xml.sax classes and isn't very big, but it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? thanks, Bob From simonstl@simonstl.com Thu Sep 25 02:19:25 2003 Received: from serrano.hesketh.net (mail.hesketh.net [216.27.21.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJJPgD023514 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:19:25 +0700 (ICT) X-Received-From: simonstl@simonstl.com X-Delivered-To: X-Originating-IP: [24.58.125.32] Received: from 192.168.124.11 (syr-24-58-125-32.twcny.rr.com [24.58.125.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by serrano.hesketh.net (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OJJ79e024774 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:19:09 -0400 X-Spam-Filter: check_local@serrano.hesketh.net by digitalanswers.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:19:13 -0400 From: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 2.0 (Blindsider) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:19:26 -0000 bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com (DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)) writes: >I just got a Sharp's Linux-based PDA, the Zaurus SL5500, and thought >it would be fun to get jing running on it. I got a >NoClassDefFoundError because it couldn't find >org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler. I believe that when I run this on a Windows >machine, jing is finding these classes right in the 1.4 jvm, but the >Zaurus jvm (the Jeode "evm") doesn't have that. I addedxml-apis.jar >from xerces, which has the org.xml.sax classes and isn't very big, but >it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to >avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to >take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for >a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? You might try: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29449 Which comes right off of: http://www.saxproject.org/ I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Sep 25 02:58:50 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJwkcC029982 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:58:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OJuUs0011718 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:30 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8OJuRhn011717 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:27 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? In-Reply-To: To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:56:27 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:58:51 -0000 > >it has external dependencies for other Xerces classes, and I want to > >avoid putting all of Xerces on because it's a PDA and I don't want to > >take up too much space with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for > >a low-footprint jar file that Jing can use for the sax classes? > > You might try: > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29449 > > Which comes right off of: > http://www.saxproject.org/ > > I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. It does not have Xerces dependencies but it does include a SAX2 parser. A parser is still required; either XP by James Clark (and org.xml.sax.parser property defined appropriately) should work, or Aelfred2 from gnu jaxp. Both are small. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk Thu Sep 25 04:58:25 2003 Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (h-69-3-90-48.SNVACAID.covad.net [69.3.90.48]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OLwO8Z049189 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:58:24 +0700 (ICT) Received: from fbsd-machine.lib.aero (localhost.lib.aero [127.0.0.1]) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJpQmr009188 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) Received: (from ari@localhost) by fbsd-machine.lib.aero (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8OJoxGY009183; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd-machine.lib.aero: ari set sender to ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk using -f Sender: ari@lib.aero To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org, relaxng-user@relaxng.org References: <86y8wft83x.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> <20030924115316.GC12899@mercury.ccil.org> From: ari@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (K. Ari Krupnikov) In-Reply-To: <20030924115316.GC12899@mercury.ccil.org> Message-ID: <86d6dqq82k.fsf@fbsd-machine.lib.aero> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: [xml-dev] A RELAX NG question X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: 24 Sep 2003 12:50:59 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:00 -0000 This thread has moved to the new relaxng-user list. John Cowan writes: > K. Ari Krupnikov scripsit: > > > I have a master RNG file that describes general properties of my > > grammar, and individual RNG files that describe individual > > elements. The master file s the individual ones. > > Do you have them separated out merely for ease of maintenance, or do > you anticipate using different contents for the individual files? Yes. I tangle my RNGs from other markup, if you are curious, take a look at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/stng/STnG/literate/ > > Question 1: is this a good way of > > doing things in RELAX NG, or should I consider a better alternative? > > The obvious alternative would be to avoid the machinery of "define" > combination, and simply use externalRef to bring in the element patterns > directly. This is somewhat more streamlined. Won't work, I don't think. Any of the elements' CM may need to say "any element of class foo here," without enumerating members of the foo class by name or filename -- it can't because it doesn't know about them. It knows about classes because they are enumerated in the master file. > > Question 2: I need to add declarations that would be common to all > > members of a particular class. An obvious way is to have every element > > the common declarations (a group of attributes in this > > case). Can I do it in one place? DTDs don't provide such a mechanism, > > XSD does (thought inheritance). > > I don't see that it's any better or worse to have to ref common > subpatterns than to have to specify a common base type. I want to specify both in one declaration. It's not an accidental coincidence that all members of a class have common attributes, it's part of the meaning of being a part of that class. I was wondering if there was a way to capture that in RELAX NG. Ari. From veillard@redhat.com Thu Sep 25 05:11:19 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OMBJZL051291 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:11:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8OMBGs02246; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:16 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Pawson Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl Message-ID: <20030924181116.F21529@redhat.com> References: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030924180200.00b1c928@pop3.Nildram.co.uk>; from dpawson@nildram.co.uk on Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:02:38PM +0100 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:11:20 -0000 On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:02:38PM +0100, Dave Pawson wrote: > At 00:39 25/09/2003 +0800, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > >I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc > >complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? > > Suggest trying on the xsltproc mailing list? > Or one of Daniel's source files? Yeah, I'm not sure either how it related to Relax-NG (formatting the XML spec file ?). I don't have prep.xsl anywhere, I doublt it's directly related to xsltproc. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Thu Sep 25 02:41:11 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJfBW0027244 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:41:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19753; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Simon St.Laurent" Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? Message-ID: <20030924193943.GB28066@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:59:30 +0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:41:12 -0000 Simon St.Laurent scripsit: > Which comes right off of: > http://www.saxproject.org/ > > I don't think it should have Xerces dependencies, anyway. Well, that provides the SAX interfaces and helper classes, which are not present in JVMs before 1.4. But then you need an actual *parser*, of which the smallest I know of is Aelfred2. -- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan From dvd@davidashen.net Thu Sep 25 06:09:58 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8ON9s7j061281 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:09:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8ON7bs0018304 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8ON7bUE018303 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309242307.h8ON7bUE018303@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:07:37 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] API? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:09:58 -0000 Hi, I am trying to use relaxng to analyze markup's syntax. Is there a public way to traverse a loaded grammar? I've looked at com.thaiopensource.relaxng.edit. Is it where I should start from? David From jjc@jclark.com Thu Sep 25 07:18:56 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8P0IrV5071615 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:18:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8P0IlY19925 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:18:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F7233B0.5030705@jclark.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:15:44 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Small jar file with org.xml.sax to go with Jing? References: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> In-Reply-To: <200309241956.h8OJuRhn011717@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:18:56 -0000 David Tolpin wrote: > It does not have Xerces dependencies but it does include a SAX2 parser. A parser > is still required; either XP by James Clark (and org.xml.sax.parser property > defined appropriately) should work, or Aelfred2 from gnu jaxp. Both are > small. XP isn't maintained and doesn't support SAX2. IIRC, the GNU jaxp parser does not fully implement SAX2 (in that it doesn't allow ContentHandler to be set during a parse), which makes it not work with Jing. I would recommend Crimson (available from Apache) as a small and conformant parser that works with Jing. James From catcode@catcode.com Sat Sep 27 05:40:00 2003 Received: from tengu.host4u.net (tengu.host4u.net [209.150.128.42]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8QMe0CP097545 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 05:40:00 +0700 (ICT) Received: from localhost (catcode@localhost) by tengu.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8QMchp09433 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:38:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:38:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. David Eisenberg" X-X-Sender: catcode@tengu.host4u.net To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:40:01 -0000 I'm teaching a beginning XML course at a local community college, and long since decided to teach Relax NG instead of XML Schema (I tell the students, "I don't want your heads to explode.") I was teaching RNG before the compact syntax came on the scene, but this semester some students have expressed interest in it. Over the past two days, I wrote a second version of the lecture notes (at http://catcode.com/cit041x) to cover compact syntax. [And this is my first use of it as well.] My questions: 1) Should instructors emphasize the XML syntax or the compact syntax? The XML syntax _is_ the official version, and it's the one used by W3C for SVG, but compact is, well, more compact. 2) If you look at the lecture notes, you'll see that my indenting style is remarkably schizoid - I was developing my own personal style as I wrote the notes. Are there any "Official Relax NG Compact Syntax Indenting Guidelines"? -- J. David Eisenberg http://catcode.com/ From jjc@jclark.com Sat Sep 27 14:20:24 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8R7KCmH060647 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:20:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8R7JvY03655 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:19:58 +0700 Message-ID: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:17:29 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:20:25 -0000 J. David Eisenberg wrote: > 1) Should instructors emphasize the XML syntax or the compact syntax? The > XML syntax _is_ the official version, and it's the one used by W3C for > SVG, but compact is, well, more compact. I don't really have an answer. The compact syntax is an OASIS committee spec, so it's official too, although it hasn't started on any ISO standardization path (yet). If you do emphasize the compact syntax, I think it's important to mention the XML syntax and teach how to get the XML syntax from the compact syntax. Apart from that, I would suggest emphasizing whichever you think your audience will understand more easily. > 2) If you look at the lecture notes, you'll see that my indenting style is > remarkably schizoid - I was developing my own personal style as I wrote > the notes. Are there any "Official Relax NG Compact Syntax > Indenting Guidelines"? No. You can use trang to indent your RNC by using RNC input and RNC output. I put a fair amount of effort into making trang's RNC output indent in a reasonable and systematic way. The overall objective is to produce a readable schema. Indentation is just one factor that contributes to readability. I find compact schemas easier to read when they are relatively flat. I prefer schemas that follow the following rules: - always have an implicit top-level grammar - no nested element patterns; move nested element patterns into separate definitions - any closing ( on the same line as the opening ); if this makes the line too long or the expression hard to read, then factor part of the expression out into another definition - closing } either on the same line as the opening { or on a line by itself aligned with the start of the keyword before the opening { James From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sun Sep 28 11:37:13 2003 Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8S4bDuL003525 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:37:13 +0700 (ICT) Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A3TIr-0007Dc-00; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:37:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:37:01 -0400 To: James Clark Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Teaching Relax NG Message-ID: <20030928043701.GB27476@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F753989.2050101@jclark.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:53:59 +0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 04:37:15 -0000 James Clark scripsit: > - always have an implicit top-level grammar I agree, except for pedagogical examples. > - no nested element patterns; move nested element patterns into separate > definitions I don't mind nested elements if they are "attribute-like"; simple content models, not significantly reused. > - any closing ( on the same line as the opening ); if this makes the > line too long or the expression hard to read, then factor part of the > expression out into another definition I don't care much about this point. > - closing } either on the same line as the opening { or on a line by > itself aligned with the start of the keyword before the opening { The "One True Brace Style" set by the K&R C book. -- Go, and never darken my towels again! John Cowan --Rufus T. Firefly www.ccil.org/~cowan From jjc@jclark.com Sun Sep 28 14:39:04 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8S7d1Fk023596 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:39:02 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8S7clL22630 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:38:49 +0700 Message-ID: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:36:02 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl References: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> In-Reply-To: <000a01c382ba$b0381820$2a1942d2@mapa.com.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:39:04 -0000 Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > I'm using xsltproc to split spectest.xml in the test suite. Xsltproc > complains it cannot load prep.xsl. Where can I find this file? I think there's a copy in: http://www.thaiopensource.com/download/gcj/jing-20030619.tar.gz If you look in the test directory, the Makefile uses xsltproc to split up spectest.xml. I'll fix the test suite in the next release to include this. James From chengchangwu@yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 03:34:18 2003 Received: from web41308.mail.yahoo.com (web41308.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.57]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8TKYIgg013703 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:34:18 +0700 (ICT) Message-ID: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [210.66.25.42] by web41308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:11 PDT Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:34:19 -0000 I've found prep.xsl, thanks for the help. My program can still not handle all of the relaxng constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I am using in my project. I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says one can replace the expandable ref element with its definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't grasp this well. Ex. Isn't this a correct relaxng schema? I don't know Java, so I can't find how jing has done it. How can this be simplified with the simplification rules in section 4 of the specification? I havn't done the simplification as the specification says, will this bring me some trouble in the future? Thanks for your great job on RelaxNG, it's much better than any other schema language which I can't comprehend. Cheng-Chang From veillard@redhat.com Tue Sep 30 04:09:22 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8TL9Mch019506 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 04:09:22 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8TL9Ib22633; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl Message-ID: <20030929170918.T21529@redhat.com> References: <3F768F62.7000902@jclark.com> <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com>; from chengchangwu@yahoo.com on Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:09:22 -0000 On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700, Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > I've found prep.xsl, thanks for the help. > > My program can still not handle all of the relaxng > constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I > am using in my project. > > I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref > element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says > one can replace the expandable ref element with its > definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't > grasp this well. Ex. > > > > > > > Isn't this a correct relaxng schema? I don't know The simplest way I could understand the spec was in term of input. Basically the loop is invalid because it consume no input. You can go from the top definition of the test define to the recursive reference without any change in the input. On the other hand is okay because to go from the definition to the reference you had to consume the "bar" element input. Still the best way is to follow the spec description of the semantic but sometimes taking a different approach can help seeing the concept behind the formalism. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From jjc@jclark.com Tue Sep 30 08:59:59 2003 Received: from server.bkk.thaiopensource.com ([203.130.150.186]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8U1xvAc059938 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:58 +0700 (ICT) Received: from jclark.com ([203.130.150.187]) by server.bkk.thaiopensource.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8U1xlL02862; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:59:47 +0700 Message-ID: <3F78E2EB.5010200@jclark.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:56:59 +0700 From: James Clark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cheng-Chang Wu Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] prep.xsl References: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030929203411.71513.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:00:01 -0000 Cheng-Chang Wu wrote: > My program can still not handle all of the relaxng > constructs, but it can already read the relaxng file I > am using in my project. > > I've had problems to determine the nullability of ref > element. In section 4.19 of the specification it says > one can replace the expandable ref element with its > definition. THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN A LOOP. I can't > grasp this well. Typically, an implementation represents each type of pattern by an object. The schema is thus initially a tree of objects. At a convenient point, the implementation typically resolves references: it checks that there's a define for each ref and makes each ref pattern point directly to that define, and each grammar becomes just a reference to its start pattern. At this stage, you have a directed graph of objects. This graph may have cycles (where every cycle passes through a ref pattern). What your implementation has to do is check that every cycle passes through an element pattern. You can do this by having a recursive function with a single depth parameter that walks the graph, recording at each ref node the depth at which it last visited the node, and incrementing the depth when it passes through an element node. See com.thaiopensource.relaxng.impl.RefPattern.checkRecursion() in Jing. James From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:05:53 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UD5rob043912 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:05:53 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064927148!1162261 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 20876 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 13990 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14529 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:05:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:58 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA03980; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:58 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:05:54 -0000 I had a DTD that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced x = element x { attlist.x, any } attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x any = (element * { attribute * { text }*, any } | text)* which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying with any instance document, say to be definite, I get $ jing id.rng id.xml z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. Am I confused or is Jing? Thanks for any advice, David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 20:25:02 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UDOxRv046749 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:25:01 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494F0192F77 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:25:04 -0000 Hi David, On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:01, David Carlisle wrote: > I had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > I had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xml > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xmlI had a DTD > > > > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > > > which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying > with any instance document, say > > > > to be definite, I get > > $ jing id.rng id.xml > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" > > > Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to > validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. > > Am I confused or is Jing? I think you are ;-) ... I have tried to explain that in my book: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/RngNamespaces.html (search for "A couple of traps to avoid"). Basically, what's happening here is the the DTD compatibility feature does emulate even its restrictions :-) ... Hope this helps. Eric -- Freelance consulting and training. http://dyomedea.com/english/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Tom.Gaven@exostar.com Tue Sep 30 20:28:32 2003 Received: from NETMAIL01.exostar.com ([208.47.83.2]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UDSWXS047231 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:28:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: by NETMAIL02.exostar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:26 -0400 Message-ID: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> From: Tom Gaven To: "'David Carlisle'" , relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cc: X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:28:33 -0000 David, 1 x = element x { attlist.x, any } 2 attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? 3 start = x 4 any = 5 (element * { 6 attribute * { text }*, 7 any 8 } 9 | text)* If you desire 'any attribute on element x', then you should probably remove line 2, and delete 'attlist.x,' from line 1. This should get rid of your Jing error, and grant your desire. You may be able to get: validate id attribute against ID rule and grant all other attributes but you'd probably have to use some choice and except..not syntax... that is outside my reach at the moment... :) also, I think trang's conversion of was a bit too loose in that it allowed any attribute as well as any element. Tom -----Original Message----- From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:02 AM To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types I had a DTD that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced x = element x { attlist.x, any } attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x any = (element * { attribute * { text }*, any } | text)* which seems plausible, but after converting to rng format and trying with any instance document, say to be definite, I get $ jing id.rng id.xml z:\relaxng\id.rng:22: error: conflicting ID-types for attribute "id" of element "x" Removing the attribute * clause from the any pattern allows the file to validate, but I do want to allow any element with any attribute. Am I confused or is Jing? Thanks for any advice, David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ relaxng-user mailing list relaxng-user@relaxng.org http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:36:44 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UDah3B048447 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:36:44 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-8.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064928996!1173507 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 21357 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from smtp-5.star.net.uk (212.125.75.74) by server-8.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 27745 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-5.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:36:36 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15344; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:36:25 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:02 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301333.OAA04167@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA04167; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:33:02 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: vdv@dyomedea.com In-reply-to: <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> (message from Eric van der Vlist on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:58 +0200) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> <1064928297.5216.45.camel@delleric> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:36:46 -0000 > > Am I confused or is Jing? > I think you are ;-) ... Good. That's easier for me to fix! > all the other definitions of an attribute "id" hosted by an element > "book" must have the same type "ID". Ah. thanks, Hmm I think I'll just declare my id attribute as text or xsd:NCName or something and give up on this xsd:ID business. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 20:52:09 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UDq9kI051034 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:52:09 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-26.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064929922!1156095 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 25952 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:52:02 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-26.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:52:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31015 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 13:52:01 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:52:01 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15694; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:51:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id OAA04245; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100 From: David Carlisle To: Tom.Gaven@exostar.com In-reply-to: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> (message from Tom Gaven on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0400) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:52:11 -0000 > If you desire 'any attribute on element x', then you should probably > remove line 2, and delete 'attlist.x,' from line 1. No I wanted control over the attributes, but to allow any element. Which was the intent of the original DTD However Eric has pointed out that while the _intent_ of that DTD was to allow anything as a child of that DTD (essentially it's an "annotation from some foreign vocabulary wrapper) actually there would be a restriction that any element called x that is included as a result of that ANY had better have an id attribute of type ID, and the relax ng version picks up that constraint as unlike xsd you can't apparently skip a chunk of well formed xml so you have to actually declare the grammar of the contained elments and you end you with text conflicting with xsd:ID. David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Sep 30 21:26:49 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEQkNK056927 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:26:48 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UENqs0051505 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UENqpB051504 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:23:52 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:26:51 -0000 Hi, I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. Where can I look at a schema with it? David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 21:38:08 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEc5K0058826 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:38:07 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C850B19329B for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:38:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:38:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:38:08 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > Where can I look at a schema with it? Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less examples in this domain. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html Eric -- Don't you think all these XML schema languages should work together? http://dsdl.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From veillard@redhat.com Tue Sep 30 21:41:30 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (pix-525-pool.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEfUa4059341 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:41:30 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h8UEeLa01736; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:21 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:21 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: David Tolpin Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? Message-ID: <20030930104021.Q21529@redhat.com> References: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200309301423.h8UENqpB051504@adat.davidashen.net>; from dvd@davidashen.net on Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:52PM +0500 Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:41:30 -0000 On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:52PM +0500, David Tolpin wrote: > Hi, > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > Where can I look at a schema with it? Isn't the example from chapter 8 of the tutorial "real-life" enough ? http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/relax-ng/tutorial-20011203.html#IDAN1YR Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Tue Sep 30 21:53:56 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UErqDB061305 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:53:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UEoxs0051669 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UEoxR3051668 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin Message-Id: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? In-Reply-To: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:50:59 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:53:57 -0000 > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > > Where can I look at a schema with it? > > Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > examples in this domain. > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. I am trying to solve a problem for which every construct must be converted into a set of productions and am having difficulty translating interleave into a set of productions in general case. It is possible and easy in general, but complicates my particular algorithm. I am considering dropping interleave and trying to find out what kind of grammars will be beyond the scope. I haven't yet seen one. David From bob.ducharme@lexisnexis.com Tue Sep 30 21:56:11 2003 Received: from mx02.lexis-nexis.com (mx02.lexis-nexis.com [207.25.178.45]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UEuAW4061692 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:56:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.44.45]) by mx02.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEuKFG014111 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:21 -0400 Received: from LNXDAYEXCH06.lexis-nexis.com (lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com [138.12.12.59]) by mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEu4vT012028 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:05 -0400 Received: by lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:03 -0400 Message-ID: From: "DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO)" To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:56:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:56:11 -0000 >> I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. >> Where can I look at a schema with it? >Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good >examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take >advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less >examples in this domain. I see it the other way around: to me, ordering matters more in document-oriented applications, but less in data-oriented applications. If a relational table has columns for firstName, lastName, empNum, homePhone, officePhone, hireDate, etc., the ordering of their XML equivalents inside of an element that represents a row of that table really doesn't matter to me, and probably doesn't to an importing application. I'll bet there are plenty of examples there. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 22:02:07 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF1uZE062928 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:02:03 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF4019374E for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:01:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> References: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064934110.5191.86.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:01:50 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:02:10 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:50, David Tolpin wrote: > > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:23, David Tolpin wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of 'interleave'. > > > Where can I look at a schema with it? > > > > Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > > examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > > advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > > examples in this domain. > > > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml20_relax.html > > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; There is also an hidden use of "interleave" in each "mixed" template since "mixed" is a shortcut for "interleave" with a "text" pattern. > and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. How can you do this (I mean combining without order) without interleave? > I am trying to solve a problem for which every construct must be converted into a > set of productions and am having difficulty translating interleave into a set > of productions in general case. It is possible and easy in general, but complicates > my particular algorithm. Interleave does complicate the algorithm, that's why it has been kept away from other schema languages, but it gives a flexibility to users which is unique amongst schema languages... > I am considering dropping interleave and trying to find out what kind of grammars > will be beyond the scope. I haven't yet seen one. Again, any mixed content model is in this scope. Eric -- See you in Philadelphia for XML 2003. http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/ Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 22:07:55 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF7svT063908 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:55 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UF7rxK002453 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM1001NJ8P497@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM100ERH8P3ZS@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:07:52 -0700 From: Kohsuke KAWAGUCHI In-reply-to: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20030930080749.1736.KK@kohsuke.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:07:56 -0000 > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. HTML
is another example. You can have things like ,,<script>,<link>,... in any order, but you can have at most one <title>. Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From vdv@dyomedea.com Tue Sep 30 22:09:39 2003 Received: from gwparis.dyomedea.com (ASt-Lambert-102-1-1-8.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.191.8]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF9b26064311 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:09:38 +0700 (ICT) Received: from 6-allhosts (unknown [10.0.0.2]) by gwparis.dyomedea.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D3A1938D4 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RE: [relaxng-user] examples of application of interleave? From: Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-Reply-To: <FEF4858E8AB32D4EAC2CF2A7D85386EBE52C84@lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com> References: <FEF4858E8AB32D4EAC2CF2A7D85386EBE52C84@lnxdayexch06.lexis-nexis.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Dyomedea (http://dyomedea.com) Message-Id: <1064934575.5191.95.camel@delleric> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:35 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:09:39 -0000 On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 16:56, DuCharme, Bob (LNG-CHO) wrote: > >> I have difficulty trying to find real-life examples of application of > 'interleave'. > >> Where can I look at a schema with it? > > >Any document oriented application (such as XHTML 2.0 [1]) contain good > >examples, but I do believe that data oriented applications should take > >advantage of this feature too even though there are probably less > >examples in this domain. > > I see it the other way around: to me, ordering matters more in > document-oriented applications, but less in data-oriented applications. If a > relational table has columns for firstName, lastName, empNum, homePhone, > officePhone, hireDate, etc., the ordering of their XML equivalents inside of > an element that represents a row of that table really doesn't matter to me, > and probably doesn't to an importing application. I'll bet there are plenty > of examples there. I thin that there is a misunderstanding here and that many users think that "unordered" models are models where the order doesn't matter which is very reductive. What we often call unordered models are models where the schema doesn't enforce the order and that doesn't mean that the order shouldn't be considered significant for the application, on the contrary, the fact that two elements may appear in any order may bring additional information. For instance, if I write: person = element last-name{text}, element first-name{text} The fact that I enforce a specific order means that I don't know if the person prefers to get his/her first name before his/her last name, while if I write: person = element last-name{text}& element first-name{text}, I can write in my instance document either <last-name>DuCharme</last-name><first-name>Bob</first-name> or <first-name>Bob</first-name><last-name>DuCharme</last-name> In this case, this "lack" of order is an information by itself! So, I think that in fact we all agree here :-) ... Eric > Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ > snee.com> "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy > spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii > _______________________________________________ > relaxng-user mailing list > relaxng-user@relaxng.org > http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user -- If you have a XML document, you have its schema. http://examplotron.org Upcoming schema tutorial: - Philadelphia (7/12/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V28612FC5 Tutoriel XSLT: - Paris (25/11/2003) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2C623FC5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From davidc@nag.co.uk Tue Sep 30 22:24:54 2003 Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com (mail22.messagelabs.com [62.231.131.211]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with SMTP id h8UFOs9v067164 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:24:54 +0700 (ICT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: davidc@nag.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-28.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1064935491!1171272 X-StarScan-Version: 5.0.7; banners=nag.co.uk,-,- Received: (qmail 25027 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) by server-28.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 15:24:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18158 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 15:24:48 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17779 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:24:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:36 +0100 Message-Id: <200309301520.QAA04797@penguin.nag.co.uk> Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id QAA04797; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:36 +0100 From: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org In-reply-to: <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> (message from David Carlisle on Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:48:16 +0100) Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types References: <08AE6B9487F960468A915ECA3C29E1AC0556128C@NETMAIL02.exostar.com> <200309301348.OAA04245@penguin.nag.co.uk> X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:24:55 -0000 Just to tie up this thread, unless anyone has any better suggestions I'm planning to use this default namespace om = "http://www.openmath.org/OpenMath" start = y x = element x { attlist.om, (om|notom)* } y = element y { attlist.om, (x | y)* } attlist.om = attribute id { xsd:ID }? om = (x|y) notom = (element * - om:* { attribute * { text }*, notom } | text) Which I believe says that both OpenMath elements take an attribute id of type ID and the content of x can be any non OpenMath element or valid OpenMath. Which is of course what I really wanted to say all along:-) David ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Sep 30 23:11:24 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UGBIOU075265 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:11:19 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27193; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:15 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] jing: error: conflicting ID-types Message-ID: <20030930161015.GC19883@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309301301.OAA03980@penguin.nag.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:11:24 -0000 David Carlisle scripsit: > > I had a DTD > > <!ELEMENT x ANY> > <!ATTLIST x id ID #IMPLIED> > > that I wanted to convert to relax ng, trang produced > > x = element x { attlist.x, any } > attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? > start = x > any = > (element * { > attribute * { text }*, > any > } > | text)* > Am I confused or is Jing? The fault is with Trang, and yet it's hard to see how it could do any better without taking an entirely different approach. The semantics of ANY in a DTD are essentially (#PCDATA|FOO|BAR|BAZ|...)*, where FOO, BAR, BAZ, ... are the declared elements in the DTD. It does not mean that "any XML" is permissible here, but that's how Trang translates it. Consequently, the declaration of the element named "x" as having an "id" attribute of type ID conflicts with the implicit declaration of "x" (as part of the element wildcard) as having an "id" attribute (as part of the attribute wildcard) of type text. Normally, this wouldn't matter, but the semantics of type ID are global, and RNG requires that ID-declared attributes be consistent throughout the document. Here is an RNC schema that should do what you want: x = element x { attlist.x & not-x* & x* & text} attlist.x &= attribute id { xsd:ID }? start = x not-x = element (* - x) { attribute * {text}* & not-x* & x* & text } -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy. Dennett and Bennett are well-known. Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett. There is also one Dummett. By their works shall ye know them. However, just as no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly known by his works. Indeed, Bummett does not exist. It is part of the function of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him. From Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 22:05:12 2003 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UF5BSl063459 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:05:11 +0700 (ICT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UF55kv021084 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM1001MF8KE98@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.145.133.94] by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HM100EZL8KEX7@mail.sun.net> for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:05:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:05:03 -0700 From: Kohsuke Kawaguchi <Kohsuke.Kawaguchi@Sun.COM> In-reply-to: <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Message-id: <20030930080215.1732.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.06.02 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1064932684.5188.74.camel@delleric> <200309301450.h8UEoxR3051668@adat.davidashen.net> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:30:40 +0700 Subject: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:05:12 -0000 > The only use for interleave in XHTML 2.0 is to combine header.contents from various > modules; and in this context there is no order significance within the patterns > to be combined. This part can be done easily without interleave. HTML <header> is another example. You can have things like <meta>,<title>,<script>,<link>,... in any order, but you can have at most one <title>. Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. regards, -- Kohsuke Kawaguchi Sun Microsystems kohsuke.kawaguchi@sun.com From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 1 00:09:23 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UH9IMl085578 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:09:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UH6Os0052280 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UH6O2x052279 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200309301706.h8UH6O2x052279@adat.davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Re: examples of application of interleave? In-Reply-To: <20030930080215.1732.KOHSUKE.KAWAGUCHI@sun.com> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:06:24 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:25 -0000 > > Sounds like you are trying to implement a RELAX NG processor, and if so, > I wonder what is the point in adopting an algorithm that is known to be > incapable of supporting full RELAX NG. > No, I am trying to use jing (actually, one modified for use with rng2srng just because relaxng/impl is good for walking the graph and is not public in the original jing) as a toolkit to parse schemas to build LR parser on top of a markup for a language where elements of original markup are symbols (and elements with no content or text-only content are terminals). I am therefore trying to develop algorithm that approximates a schema with a context-free grammar as close as possible. I realize that a new method can be developed to build an LR parsing algorithm for a language derived from the full RNG but this is beyond my domain of interest now. All markup schemas I looked at can either be trivially rewritten without interleave or use interleave with exactly one element in one of two branches. These cases require a much simpler implementation than the general case. I am now (with the examples brought) even more convinced that interleave as a language tool is a solution looking for a problem; it lets users define languages which are great for validation by RNG but significantly complicate certain other operations beyond the scope of validation. I will be trying to find a solution, but not too hard. Loosening the grammar just a bit will solve my problem and give me a good tool. David Tolpin http://davidashen.net/ From dvd@davidashen.net Wed Oct 1 01:01:43 2003 Received: from adat.davidashen.net ([217.113.20.242]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UI1dE9094551 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:01:42 +0700 (ICT) Received: from adat.davidashen.net (localhost.davidashen.net [127.0.0.1]) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8UHwjs0052582 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) (envelope-from dvd@adat.davidashen.net) Received: (from dvd@localhost) by adat.davidashen.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8UHwj2d052581 for relaxng-user@relaxng.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Message-Id: <200309301758.h8UHwj2d052581@adat.davidashen.net> To: relaxng-user@relaxng.org Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:58:45 +0500 (AMST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng X-BeenThere: relaxng-user@relaxng.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for users of RELAX NG <relaxng-user.relaxng.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://relaxng.org/pipermail/relaxng-user> List-Post: <mailto:relaxng-user@relaxng.org> List-Help: <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://relaxng.org/mailman/listinfo/relaxng-user>, <mailto:relaxng-user-request@relaxng.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:01:44 -0000 It is my impression that Relax NG, as well as other modern schema languages, is implemented with idea in mind that a schema is a validation tool. Yet, in my opinion, this application should not be the only one. It is not even the most important one. There are many more things that must be done with formally defined XML languages than validation; Relax NG as it currently specified and implemented, does not make those other things easier. Nor any other schema, to say the truth. David From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed Oct 1 01:18:26 2003 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by thaiopensource.com (8.12.9p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UIIJuq097121 for <relaxng-user@relaxng.org>; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:18:25 +0700 (ICT) Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28587; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:14:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:14:01 -0400 From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com> To: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net> Subject: Re: [relaxng-user] Applications of relaxng Message-ID: <20030930181401.GI19883@skunk.reutershealt